Quick post-election thoughts.

11.4.2008 — 49 Comments

President Barack Obama.

Wow.

I refuse to join the “Don’t blame me, I voted for…” crowd.
I refuse to join the “I’m moving to Canada.” crowd.
I refuse to join the “I’m building a bomb shelter.” crowd.

My stance:

I will continue to pray for the President of the United States of America. I will respect him as I believe God asks us to respect those in authority over us.

I’ve said it during this entire season: I am glad that God is in control and knew exactly how many votes would be cast for each candidate before either was even a positive pregnancy test result!

  • http://www.benjaminzimmerman.wordpress.com Benji Zimmerman

    I love your response. I am working on a blog of facebook “ignorant” updates. It should be up in a couple hours. Thanks for posting this. It will be linked in my blog.

  • http://www.benjaminzimmerman.wordpress.com Benji Zimmerman

    Your comment is not ignorant, sorry if it came off that way.

  • Joel Fitch

    Very well said Stevan. While my candidate didn’t win and it’s a hard one to take, all we can do now is pray. Am I unsure, or perhaps even scared? Sure. But my God is bigger than that – thankfully.

  • Jill Hassi

    AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

    Just a thought regarding moving to Canada though… why bother? We will probably soon be so much like Canada that there will not be a need to move!

  • http://ericebbinghaus.com Eric Ebbinghaus

    thanks Stev. I’m on board with you 100 percent. Posting you to my blog.

  • Anthony Gilbert

    Couldn’t of said it better.

  • Mom Garrett/ Mamaw LeeAnn

    Although my candidate didn’t win, and after going through many different emotions over the past hour, I too will be giving my respect and praying for our soon to be President, Barak Obama.

  • Rich (Bro In Law)

    I think he will make a fine president. The funny thing I find in all of this election business is that both candidates resembled one another. I happen to believe that McCain would have made the same decisions while in office that Obama does. I look at this election and I don’t see a good versus evil scenario in which the good guy lost and the evil won and what a terrible time were going to have now. No, I see a God that has a specific plan who said to the nation, his people included “It doesn’t matter what you choose, both are the same. I have a plan and as much as you worry and fret and try to change it you can’t because no matter how you choose my plan will go forward in the same way.” How vain are we to believe that we have any influence on Gods plan. Perhaps we have influence inside of his plan because were his children and he loves us but on the plan itself? I pray that God changes Obama’s heart and that he becomes great in both Gods eyes and ours. Its sad that was Christians we completely and consistently overlook Gods ability and desire to change people. We cast a lot for a man and become so narrow minded in that cast that we write a person off as lost and without hope. Maybe, and this likely will ruffle some feathers, but maybe this was never about you Mister Christian. Maybe this was never about the country. Maybe this was never about the world. Maybe this whole process was about one man and the change God desired in his heart. God had to make me a serviceman to effect serious change in my life. Stevan he made a pastor but Obama a president. That in and of itself should say something. His potential must be great indeed. So my suggestion from here on out is stop talking negative, stop thinking negative and stop believing that you know better than God and start seriously praying for the soon to be president because if God ever truly got a hold of his heart imagine the greatness we would find in a leader with his qualities.

  • Kathy

    Rich – wow. Stevan I do agree with you. I am not happy but I will pray for him. For a changed heart, for wisdom and for protection.

  • Momma Sweeny

    Read on a sign coming home from Ft Wayne Monday.
    “A Nation gets the leader it deserves”

  • Cousin Brittany

    Draven isnt a happy camper about the outcome, he is upset because Grandma and Grandpa are.

  • Joel Fitch

    After seeing how my different Christian friends reacted to the McCain loss I can’t help but wonder about some things. Their reaction was mostly (not entirely I must admit) one of accepting what has happened and leaving it in Gods hands – offering to pray for our country and for our president-elect. Their words have been ones of humility and acceptance – understanding that God is still in control. Now for the flip side of what I was wondering. What if McCain had won? Would Obamas supporters (many of whom I call dear friends) have reacted in the same way? Would they have been gracious in defeat? Would they have accepted it as Gods will? I don’t know – not that it matters – but I couldn’t help but wonder.

  • Grandma Sally Sheets (aka-“Mom”)

    No matter…God IS in control!!! It is no secret what God can do!!

    Praise Him!!!

    We don’t need to worry if we live out every day for Him!!

  • Kathy

    In response to Joel – last night as I watched the different speeches I noticed that the McCain camp was booing Obama & when Obama was making his speech and mentioned McCain there was not booing. At least what I was able to stay awake for.

  • Jaymie

    Thank you everyone for being such great examples of what “followers of Christ look like.” Stevan thank you for your post. richie, thank you for challenging me to pray differently and to believe in the miraculous life-changing power of our God!

  • Joel Fitch

    Kathy, I wrote that actually before the speeches and posted it here only today. And I was speaking about my friends and not the electorate in general. But you’re right, I thought it was rude (at best) to boo our president-elect Obama. In no way was I trying to paint a brush of “humility” across Republicans and Christians. I apologize if that’s how it came across.

  • http://thrownhammer.wordpress.com/ Shawn French

    Remember that weird little guy running North Korea? He’s weird.

  • Dad Garrett

    I heartily agree with the attitudes expressed in these comments. Many in this young generation have never experienced a government where all branches of the government believe in the same ideology. We are so used to opposition between the branches, we can’t fathom what would happen if the same party had all of the majorities. I predict that Mr. Obama will get an education; and so will the voters.

  • Eric

    Since 1972 there have been statistically 52,000 babies killed every month. (You can have an almost 111 square mile grave yard of babies with that statistic) Our new President has a track record and reputation of being the “most liberal” politician and knowingly has a position of strongly supporting abortion, even after the baby survives a botched abortion and left to die. I cannot respect a man who takes this position and as now been elected to the status of President of our Nation. It is a horrible National sin that is now representative of our Nations collective conscience as to further support the slaughter of innocent human life. I voted in opposition and fear the Holy wrath due our Nation because of it.

    I cannot respect a man who will commence a failed world viewpoint to take from the “haves” and give it to the “have nots”. This world view will replace Christian benevolence and self-respecting hard work with government entitlement. Sorry, it isn’t right and strips a man of his dignity.

    I cannot respect a man who will, as President, work to make us a “European” duplicated Nation and has an agenda that removes further the moral compass we once had. We are truly getting the leader our country deserves.

    This man will not unite our country. He is directly opposed to the traditions and designs of our country and the founding fathers. He only is interested on pushing a liberal agenda, yet represented himself as a centrist to the American people to get the White House. Only time will tell, but the Dems will move thier Liberal agenda very aggresively the first 30 days President Obama takes office. Watch for gay marriage, watch for abandonment of our military and defense of Isreal. I cannot respect that either, to abandon our allies in Isreal because of his liberal ideology.

    Our Nation is well deserving of God’s judgement and wrath. We have truly forgotten God and His supreme Authority over our country. As a Christian, I will be warning my neighbor and fellow Christian, we need to be right with the God who made us and gave us life and turn our Nation around by faith and hard work. Our Nation was born with great cost and sacrifice. It will be restored with the same effort. “Our lives, our fortunes, and sacred honor”

    Many “Christians” respected Hitler and honored Him to the point of complacency and ignorance of the scriptures.

    I will not be one of those “Christians” that tolerates National sins.
    I will not be in the “I’m silent about abortion, yet consider myself a “Christian” crowd.
    I will not be one of the 98% who consider themselves “Christian” but do not tell people the gospel out of compassion for their eternal souls as a regular action in thier daily lives.
    I will not be one of those “Christians” who believes tolerance and justice can coexist and actually be a means to call people to repentance and faith.
    I will not be in the 96% of “Christians” who do not read their Bibles faithfully and then view God in an image they have made in thier own mind and call their personal god “Jesus”.
    I will not be one of the “Christians” who think the world is going to see God’s judgment and as a believer will be exempt from it. Judgement comes first to the house of the Lord then to the unbelievers. I need to be on my knees every day.

    God is in control, and he knows all things and is the Supreme Authority over all of His creation.

    I will pray, I will plead for our Nations and my personal sins daily. I will tell people of the gospel daily. I will build up and support and give voice to the things of righteousness. I will also, give fight and voice against the works of iniquity. Does anyone wrent thier clothes any more? Where are our spiritual leaders mourning for the work they need to still do, and the ground our Nation has lost? Where is the passion for the lost? Where are the pastors and Elders who are calling to thier congregations and communities to repent and to cry out to Almighty God for mercy to be about the work of the Kingdom of God? Where is the “Deep” cry for salvation for a lost people?

    I mourn for the choice our Nation has made. I mourn for the further numbers that will be added to the aborted innocent children. I mourn for the further depths of sin and iniquity our Nation will go in. I mourn for the people who have known the things of the Lord, yet have walked away. I mourn for the generations still coming behind us that will be fixing thier grandfathers and great grandfathers selfish problems and paying for those mistakes and sins of this generation. Where is our National SHAME and why isn’t the church wearing it on thier sleeves?

    I pray God will turn the hearts of our Nation, but first, turn the hearts of His people to Him in a deep and powerful way. I pray that God’s people will now humble themselves and turn from thier wickedness and sins, and worship our Lord in His Holy Spirit and Truth. I pray that we will truly live our lives that all can see that we love the Lord with ALL our hearts, soul, and mind.

    I’m but a stranger here, heaven is my home. My citizenship is in heaven. I will pray for our leaders. But I will first pray for the bretheren. This Nation will heal when God’s people get right first. We have some work to do, I’m rolling up my sleeves and I’m going to get busy.

  • http://www.sherilynsheets.com Sher Sheets

    eh hem…. hinter.

  • mott

    i agree with eric…SSSSSSHHHHHHAMMMMMEEE on us “christians”

    hahahaha…totally kidding

    thanks for writing stevan

  • Joel Fitch

    My dad (missionary in Brazil) wrote this and sent it to me…thought I’d share.

    Dear Friends
    For months now my email Inbox has been besieged by nearly hysterical warnings about what will happen if Barack Obama becomes President. I have been encouraged to be worried, afraid, concerned, prepared for disaster, and a whole host of other maladies if this happens. I do not deny the importance of this election, but it seems to me that we need a dose of perspective. So here, on the eve of the election, I would like to start my own email concerning this election. It’s a “True/False” test. I’d like for all of us to take it. Feel free to email it on to whomever:

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, Jesus will still be King.

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, our responsibilities as Christians will not have changed one iota.

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, the greatest agent for social change in America will still be winning the hearts and minds of men and women through the gospel, not legislation.

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, my primary citizenship will still be in this order – (1) the Kingdom of God, (2) America, not vice-versa.

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, the tomb will still be empty.

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, the cross, not the government, will still be our salvation.

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, our children will still be more concerned with whether or not we spend time with them than with who is President.

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, my neighbor will still be my neighbor, and loving him/her will still be the second greatest commandment. (Do you know the first?)

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, the only way to see abortion ultimately overturned will still be winning men and women to a high view of life through the gospel of Christ.

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, the only way to see gay marriage ultimately defeated will still be winning men and women to a biblical view of marriage through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, my retirement will still not match my treasure in Heaven.

    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, “Jesus Is Lord” will still be the greatest truth in the Universe.
    True/False: The day after the election, regardless of who wins, we will still know that God is in control.

    How did you score?

  • mott

    and one more thing eric…

    our nation’s foundation also began with slaves…was that God’s plan??? was that a “christian” principal?…do you still wish that was going on too?…what was it you said…that Obama is opposing the “traditions and designs of our country and the founding fathers.” i guess that would mean slavery is a tradition too…right

    …it’s not black and white…never will be…argue it all you want but choices are hard for Christians and everybody else that doesn’t fall under that category. neither candidate stood for EVERYTHING God talks about in the bible. Geez…so damn judgemental…i can hardly even take it.

  • http://allisondavis.blogspot.com Allison Davis

    stevan, nothing like a political blog to bring out all the comments. :) it happened on my blog when i talked about liking sarah palin. oh, the comments–21!

  • Miss Deb

    Well put!

    Romans 13:1

    You might want to check out Beth Moore’s letter of Nov. 5 addressed to her Sisters in the Body of Christ.

    http://livingproofministries.blogspot.com/2008/11/united-house.html

  • Eric

    Mott-

    I agree with you completely, no candidate ( in this election)stood for EVERYTHING God talks about. I never said, I support slavery. But the Bible recognizes slavery as a social status. How slaves are treated is the moral issue. Not that slavery doesn’t exist, because it always will in some form or another.

    Did you ever read speeches made by the founding fathers? I’d love to see any of them try stumping in today’s world.

    Please list one judgemental statement I made above. I’m curious to your opinion on it.

    In the Primary elections I vote with my conscience and in the elections, I vote closest to position. My ideal candidate is no where on radar. But I can sure recognize a candidate and ideology that will deconstruct the moral fiber of our country. We just got exactly that in the White House, Senate Majority, and Congressional majority. They will operate as if they have a mandate to pass their Liberal agenda. Sorry, I cannot respect that.

  • Uncle Brett

    Oh, I believe that God can and will change people if they are willing, but I agree with Draven, Brittany. I was very disappointed. Call me a single issue constituent, but I will never cast a vote for anyone who does not hold the sanctity of life in the highest regard.

  • http://www.stevansheets.com Stevan Sheets

    I want to be clear:

    Being a pro-life voter, I personally hold THAT issue above all-other issues when it comes to voting for those who lead my country, my state, my PTA.

    I did not & would not have voted for Obama based on that issue alone.

    I will, however, honor my nation’s choice for President by supporting him with my respect and my prayers.

    Romans 13:1 – Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

  • Mom Garrett/ Mamaw LeeAnn

    I too,am and was very brokenhearted over the outcome of the election because of the moral issues,such as abortion of precious babies etc…..Actually, I grieved and sobbed when McCain did not become our President and mainly because of these moral issues. But then I remembered that God is indeed in control and because his word tells us to respect the Presidential position, I’ve chosen to do so.But that doesn’t mean I must agree with the President’s stand on the moral issues. We must continue to pray.

  • Rich (Bro In Law)

    Eric, I am so very happy that for once I am not “That guy” digging himself into a hole. Thanks man, it brings me pleasure to be on the other side of things for a change. I would however recommend that you reassess your understanding of the scriptures and Jesus in general. If however you don’t want to I recommend you joining a cult, or forming your own. If you still find no change in your heart then good for you, learn to become accustomed to being alone because your views are a bit scary. If what you have laid out is Christianity than I for one thank God that I am not a Christian.

  • Eric

    Rich-

    I am open to criticism.

    But you lay out no specific criticism.

    I haven’t laid out what “Christianity is” that must on some other blog.

    Are you a calvanist?

  • Rich (Bro In Law)

    No, I am not Calvinist. I am however most certainly not Christian. I did offer specific criticism though in that I think your views to most people are scary. It has the flair of religious zealotry. I am thankful that my own convictions allow me to sleep peacefully at night. If you are looking for more pointed criticism then i would have you reconsider that non of our presidents have really done much in the abortion debate when it comes to being pro life whether confessed Christian or not. I’m not saying that some don’t adamantly disagree on the issue but disagree seems to be where most stop in their conviction. I’ve yet to see one push forward with an aggressive pro life campaign. from an abortion and wicked standpoint I didn’t see any Christian really following their convictions this election. Most voted for McCain even though he’s not really a Christian man. I heard a lot of talk about the lesser of two evils and what I saw in the end was that “Evil” won. Want to know why? Because neither of them were men of Christian convictions. You know what would have happened if all the Christians had abstained from voting at all on president? Neither do I but we’ll never know now because they threw their votes in behind a political party that desperately needs to reassess their major voting base and the desires of the people putting them in power. But they wont now because like sheep, the Christians all followed along. You can’t offer me as a voter two candidates that I by in large disagree with and expect me to be happy with one over the other or to take a lesser evil approach because if you really cared about evil you wouldn’t have thrown your lot in with either of them. At the very least I think the Christians that honestly cared about evil should have voted independent. At the most they should have not cast a vote at all. That would have shaken the republican party from their apathy. If I met you on the street and said I was taking a poll and I wanted you to participate and that I was going to punch you in the face or punch you in the family jewels and that you needed to vote on which you prefer would you continue to vote in my poll? I am not calling out Christians in particular over this because like myself I know there were many good people out there that just didn’t know what to do. I am however calling out Christians in general. I think the results of this election were hypocritical on their part. As it is they ended up with a president they considered to be evil and should not at all be surprised because in the end according to their convictions they voted on an evil man to lead them.

  • Grandma Sally Sheets (aka-“Mom”)

    Let us learn (myself included) to allow the Almighty, One true God, who is God of ALL creation…the Universe, be the Judge of what each man has and holds in his heart!

    We each are asked by God to be responsible and obedient to Him! He asks us to love Him with all of our heart, honor our father and our mother, love our neighbor as ourself, pray for our leaders, our Nation and our people …voting in our country is both a privilege and a responsibility even when there is not even one choice who seems to be a ‘righteous choice’!

  • Eric

    Rich & Mott-

    You both need to learn to actually have a discussion, by talking about the topic at hand and not use logical fallicies to think you are making a point. Both of you are so good at attacking a persons character without actually knowing them and yet think you are geniuses making a good point. Argumentum ad Hominem

    Mott-

    “Geez…so damn judgemental…i can hardly even take it.” Your statement alone is judgemental of me. I’m sure your cool with that. You still haven’t given me specifics as to your accusation of how I’ve judged you.

    Rich-

    “I did offer specific criticism though in that I think your views to most people are scary.”- Rich (bro-in-law) This is a generality.

    “You are scary!” offers no specifics.

    “It has the flair of religious zealotry.” Specifically how?

    You do understand the difference between general and specific right?

    “I would however recommend that you reassess your understanding of the scriptures and Jesus in general.” & “I am however most certainly not Christian.”- Rich(bro-in-law) What makes you some sort of an expert then on Christianity?? Not a Christian and telling one to reassess because you know better? Give me a break.

    I stated above, specifically, “In the Primary elections I vote with my conscience and in the elections, I vote closest to position. My ideal candidate is no where on radar. But I can sure recognize a candidate and ideology that will deconstruct the moral fiber of our country.”- Eric

    The system is such that in the final election, for a majority win (that is over 50% of the electorate) you can really only have 2 candidates to make a clear victor. Not that you can’t write in mickey mouse or Jesus. It just won’t make a difference in the final outcome. Many Christians are now recognizing the rift in the Republican party and Democratic Party as well and are looking into the Constitution Party and Libertarian Party now. You decide to throw in some other opinion of how to vote in an election absolutely nothing to do with your prior personal attack on my “Christianity”. Red Herring

    “like myself I know there were many good people out there that just didn’t know what to do.”-Rich(bro-in-law) You consider yourself a “good person”? The Bible says, “There is no one righteous not even one.”

    Have you taken the “good person” test?

    http://www.livingwaters.com/good

    “If I met you on the street and said I was taking a poll and I wanted you to participate and that I was going to punch you in the face or punch you in the family jewels and that you needed to vote on which you prefer would you continue to vote in my poll?”- Rich(bro-in-law) You seem like the “tolerant open-minded” type to actually do this poll on the street. Good Person, huh?

    ” I am thankful that my own convictions allow me to sleep peacefully at night.” -Rich (bro-in-law)
    As it is said, “Ignorance is bliss”. Doesn’t mean you are right.

    “At the very least I think the Christians that honestly cared about evil should have voted independent. At the most they should have not cast a vote at all.”- Rich (bro-in-law) You are entitled to your opinion, but your authority as fact that these are the only two real options is pretty arrogant of you to assume. Figures are out that 10% of voters that were going to vote for McCain/Palin stayed home and didn’t vote. Guess what? If they hadn’t the outcome could have been completely different. But they must have seen it your way and really made a difference by laying down the right to vote because thier ideal candidate wasn’t on the ticket. Outcome is thier least desired candidate just won and helped out getting them there.

  • http://www.stevansheets.com Stevan

    Just so everyone knows:

    This post fit perfectly into the “box” that the “Stuff Christians Like” blog said it would!

    http://stufffchristianslike.blogspot.com/2008/11/432-election-post-you-have-to-write.html

  • Cousin Brittany

    i think rich (bro in law) wrote himself in on the presedential ballot.
    and was mad when no one else did either.
    therefore, he just received 1 vote.

  • Rich (Bro In Law)

    I whole heartedly agree with Britt. Although I also happen to believe the best form of government to be a dictatorship, so you can rest assured that would be the last presidential election the country ever had. I wish I lived closer to Eric, he sounds fun. Either he’s way too touchy or I’m just getting way to good at getting people wound up. I’d love to enter into a debate with him on the finer points of our arguments but am at a loss through text. I would however like to hit on the thought that I am not a Christian a bit more and thankful for that at the moment. Also, I wonder if the Christians quick witted, toss around bible versus rational with people who have never read it has anything to do with the general decline of the church in America? Having much success with that Eric? I also wonder who God is likely to be more pleased with at the end of time. A devote self righteous man who managed to save himself and read the crap out of the bible or someone with a rudimentary understanding of salvation who pulled thirty of his old drinking buddies into heaven with him. Nice point counterpoint argument style of yours by the way, very polished. It’s just been my experience that polished doesn’t really get you anywhere in the world when it comes to evangelism. Plan on walking into a factory and ministering with that style? A lot of people would consider your preferred style of communication to be arrogant, as observed by a man known for his arrogance. As it is, very nice wasting time with you today Eric it helped get me through work so thanks. Also, as a parting shot (derived from the Parthian form of archery during the Roman empire: see, I can do it to) If you are representative of Christianity I thank the almighty God in heaven that I am not called by the same name as you. For the record I hope Obama does exactly what you fear the most of him and life becomes very bad for Christians because it’s my opinion that the majority of you are way too comfortable to be effective witnesses. You tend to have much greater success converting people when thrown to lions or burned at stakes or hung on crosses upside down. Cheers!

  • Eric

    “Having much success with that Eric?”Rich (bro-in-law)

    I’m glad you asked, when you actually can talk to someone with reason and have them look at thier conscience that they are not as good as they think they are, they do understand thier position with the Creator of the universe. I am in a factory type setting on a daily basis. I have some very good discussions with my co-workers and we are very reasonable about it. I have had two guys at work this week decide to get to church this weekend and started reading thier Bibles after some real good discussions. Yeah, we have had our disagreements, too. Monday morning we are starting a Bible study and I am thrilled to be a part of the work the Lord is doing in my back yard. I’d love to have you as my neighbor too. Frankly, if you ask around, with people who actually know me, I’m very comfortable with a good debate and discussion.

    “Also, as a parting shot (derived from the Parthian form of archery during the Roman empire: see, I can do it to) If you are representative of Christianity I thank the almighty God in heaven that I am not called by the same name as you.”Rich(bro-in-law)
    If you are attempting to make a shot, it actually needs to land on it’s mark to be effective. Sorry, it didn’t hit. If you miss the mark of God’s standard, it’s called sin. You believe the god you have made in your own mind actually has the power to save you and your 30 drinking buddies. You have made a god to suit your own comforts. That idol will not save you, because it doesn’t really exist. That’s like believing if you eat a bucket of KFC just before you die you’ll spend eternity with Colonel Sanders. You’d be just as wrong.

    Yes I will leave the judgement up to God for eternity, but I do know the Bible spells it out very clearly, how someone gets there, that’s why as Christians we should be studying the Bible rightly and regularly. God’s word is clear. A true believer approaches God in true humility and contrition recognizing the sacrifice Christ made on the cross to pay our debt. When we recognize the mercy and grace paid for us with a debt we could never pay, we live in repentance and turn from those things God finds offensive and sinful. Our only hope of going into heaven when we die is to fully trust that the payment made by Jesus is enough. Nothing of our efforts will count. I’m not a “good person”, but out of appreciation and adoration for the one that saved me from hell, I will be zealous for Him. The minute you think you are good enough for heaven Rich, that’s your guarantee, that you don’t understand what Christ has done for you. Your “goodness” is filty rags before a Holy God. Jesus death on the cross doesn’t buy a license for us to continue in sin, but we’ve been bought by Christ to live in righteousness and to flee from sin.

    Typically, when I have one on one discussions in a fashion similar to our blogging (thanks to stevansheets.com) after a little probing, it becomes clear that those that reject Christianity and the Bible typically have some sin that honestly they truly are in love with and refuse to let it go. That’s really why they hate Christians and God and specifically Jesus. Thier sins are more precious to them than the God who offers them mercy and grace. Think on that.

    “For the record I hope Obama does exactly what you fear the most of him and life becomes very bad for Christians because it’s my opinion that the majority of you are way too comfortable to be effective witnesses. You tend to have much greater success converting people when thrown to lions or burned at stakes or hung on crosses upside down. Cheers!”-Rich (bro-in-law)

    I couldn’t agree with you more, I believe this is exactly what is going to happen. The gospel spreads like wildfire when martyrs are made and the church suffers persecution. It is an honor to be considered as lions food, hanging art work for God haters or charred ashes. Cheers back at you!

  • http://allisondavis.blogspot.com Allison Davis

    Just a reminder–partial-birth abortion was taken off the books by Bush, which had been signed in by Clinton…i believe all abortion is horrendous, but patial-birth is beyond hellish. It has been dealt with presidentially and if Obama signs it back in, I will be greatly dissapointed, sad, and quite frankly, there goes any and all trust I have in the guy. Just responding to Rich’s comment that no president has done much in the abortion debate.

  • mott

    Eric

    To preface this post i’d like to say the reason for my delayed response wasn’t disrespect or apathy but because i’ve been too busy with other things to check this blog.

    Also want to apologize for my earlier tone. The election was quite emotional and tense for me and I’m afraid, Eric, that you might have gotten the wrath of my emotions and displaced anger from previous political conversations with my other Christian friends. Lucky you. With that said, I would like to retract my statement about labeling your words regarding Obama and his intentions for himself and our country as judgmental. I do however think they were a bit presumptuous.

    Having said that I would like to respond to a couple of comments in your interaction with Rich…

    “after a little probing, it becomes clear that those that reject Christianity and the Bible typically have some sin that honestly they truly are in love with and refuse to let it go…”

    im sure you have encountered many people that weren’t raised in your family’s tradition. they’ve had different experiences…they have questions…they can’t just believe a book because someone tells them to…Im not saying your faith has come solely from the inherent authoritative figures you’ve been surrounded by your entire life but hopefully also through personal experiences and much deliberation.
    So i don’t understand why it’s so hard for you to wrap your mind around the concept that others base their moral compasses and draw their beliefs from their own life experiences and authority figures…we are all the same…victims of circumstance trying to live the best we can with what we have been given. we’re all searching for as much happiness and truth as we can in a world fraught with deception and full of people just like you and me who are trying as hard as they can to make sense of the pain and sorrow. That’s why its surprising to me that you would think the only possible reason people don’t cling to the same moral tenets as yourself is because they are “in love” with their sin. Clearly there is a lot more going on here than what you have reduced it to.

    “That’s really why they hate Christians and God and specifically Jesus. Thier sins are more precious to them than the God who offers them mercy and grace. Think on that.”

    I don’t think that everyone that doesn’t subscribe to the flavor of Christianity that you subscribe to “hates” Christianity or all Christians or even Jesus. In fact, when speaking to lots of my non-christian friends i have found that that it is not typically Christ’s message that they have a problem with…but the imperfect messengers like you and me who often fall short of living out the teachings of Christ and tragically misrepresent Him all together because of our own false interpretations and misapplication of His philosophy.

    I would also like to state that although i don’t fully agree with everything Rich or you have presented…i do, in fact, think he has a legitimate point regarding his frustration toward some Christians and their arrogance or self-righteousness. i do think there are these type of people in every religion…it’s a human trait and not exclusively applicable to Christians. However, to be honest, reading through these comments hasn’t settled well with me as a believer…it feels angry from all sides…and it’s gross. The backlash of the election and people’s hateful and emotional comments on both sides…including my own…has challenged me to use my time more constructively by trying to understand and work with others to find common ground instead of trying to take their legs out from under them. I hope we can all get better at this…especially myself.

  • Rich (Bro In Law)

    Gratz Mott, very well spoken. Heart felt and moving. For the record, I am a follower of Christ. I enjoy playing devils advocate and getting people uncomfortable. I do not however consider myself a Christian as way too many of those are entirely hypocritical for me to want much to do with. The curse of established “Religion” I suppose. I am not sure if I would like Eric much if I were to meet him as I do consider him to be a bit on the Zealot side of things but at the very least I would think that I could respect him for his dogged belief system though I don’t find much balance in it. Still it got Mott thinking differant so I suppose it can’t be all bad. Though I do not pray for it anytime soon I stand by my belief that Christians in America could use a little less blessing and a little more persecution (By a “little” I mean a lot in both regards.)

  • Rich (Bro In Law)

    Addendum: You know what, I gave it some more thought and I think I would like Eric just fine. I don’t think we would get along well but I think I would like him. He has flavor. At the very least he believes what he believes and though what he believes may very well be irreconcilable to what I believe I suppose I could find worse company to burn on a stake next to. So, once more, Cheers Eric!

  • Eric

    “I am however most certainly not Christian.” Rich(bro-in-law)

    “I do not however consider myself a Christian as way too many of those are entirely hypocritical for me to want much to do with.” Rich(bro-in-law)

    “For the record, I am a follower of Christ. I enjoy playing devils advocate and getting people uncomfortable.” Rich (bro-in-law)

    Do you have a scripture or two, where Jesus, played “devil’s advocate”?

    Too many hypocritical Christians? Who is “self-righteous”? How many follwers are in the church of Rich anyway?

    “I am not sure if I would like Eric much if I were to meet him as I do consider him to be a bit on the Zealot side of things but at the very least I would think that I could respect him for his dogged belief system though I don’t find much balance in it.”- Rich (bro-in-law)

    I’m a Christ follower, I’m not a Christian. I’m a “devil’s advocate” now. I guess on “balance” this would be it?

    Note: You didn’t even take one statement I made and specifically address it. Yet, you decide to “characterize” me. It would be great to actually have a discussion with you on topic. You give yourself way too much credit thinking you get people aroused or uncomfortable. Maybe confused is what you are trying to say?

    Mott-
    I’ll get back to you. I appreciate the intelligent and well thought out response.

  • Rich (Bro In Law)

    I consider you to have characterized yourself very well on your own, I didn’t need to do much by way of helping there. Apparently my olive branch wasn’t holy enough, forgive me for not having the opertunity to get to the Akropolis this week, its a rather long trip by truck.

  • Eric

    I missed your Addendum until now. Had to step away.

    Sorry about that.

    I know I’d like hanging with you. There is nothing quite like a good spirited debate.

    Still patirntly waiting for some specifics.

  • Kathy

    I think this is considered eating our own…

  • Rich (Bro In Law)

    Naw Kathy, I consider it to be sharpening.

  • Eric

    Mott-

    To sum up. In general, You are right about many comments you made. Check my “presumptions” in a few years. I hope I’m wrong, and Rich hopes I’m right.

    Morality doesn’t save a person. But I guess as Robert Schuller Sr. has denied the Apostle Paul and that goodness is good enough for a God pleasing paradigm. I guess that’s where I draw the line. It’s not about works and man’s standard of goodness. I’m one of those Christ alone, Faith alone, Scripture alone wackos.

    I don’t also figure Christ taught Philosophy. He was the word of God in flesh and dwelt among us. He wasn’t a Philosophy teacher he is the Creator and the Way, the Truth and The Life. Philosophers write about Christ.

    You said,”when speaking to lots of my non-christian friends i have found that that it is not typically Christ’s message that they have a problem with.”
    What parts of Christ’s words are you teaching that they do not offend the unbeliever? John 3:16″For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17″For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18″He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19″This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20″For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21″But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” This usually gets them going after we share Christ’s teaching beyond verse 16. And then when Christ says, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by me.” Then when you talk about the narrow way and the broad road to destruction.

    I don’t know, maybe I am reading and sharing all the wrong stuff. I’ll be in my closet. ;)

  • Kathy

    Rich – or any one that says they are not a “Christian” – why would you not consider yourself a Christian? This intrigues me… I am a Christian – a Christ Follower (to the best of my ability). I do think that I do hold a bit more of what people might call a more liberal view IE: drinking – dancing etc… I believe what the Bible teaches about that. Not man… But still I am a Christian.